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Wednesday, June 11, 2008

Sanctioned Stupidity

I'm about to vent, and I've got to warn you, some of you may not agree with me, but I don't care. I'm extremely fired up about this, and this is one area where I CANNOT just sit back and be silent. Wanna know what's got me all riled up? I'll be happy to share: Bigotry! Bigotry in the name of religion, bigotry in the name of skin color, bigotry in the name of ethnicity, and bigotry in the name of race- simply put: bigotry in all its forms.

Bigotry is one of the few things that I have absolutely NO tolerance or patience for; and frankly, it is one practice that I am passionately against. Bigotry has no place in God's creation, and it's time that Christians, and everyone else, remembered that! (I am aware that not all Christians are bigots, and that bigots do not originate only within the Christian culture; but unfortunately, bigotry does occur much more frequently within "Christian" culture than it ought to. Since this is a blog with primarily Christian readers, I wish to point out the errors within "our" thinking, as well as those of other groups, that can be defines as such. Please also note: though I say "our thinking," I say so only because I am a Christian, not because I have a tendency towards bigoted attitudes.)

So what exactly constitutes bigotry? It is the thought that a group of people of differing skin color, religion, race or ethnicity, than ourselves, is somehow inferior, as a whole, simply on the basis of that difference. Bigots lump all people with the same general differing characteristic(s) into one whole, and judge them all accordingly. As an aside, I do not agree that all religions are equal, but I DO believe that all people are equal. What I am saying, is that we should be accepting of the people or persons that hold differing beliefs, are of a different skin color, a different race, or a different ethnicity than ourselves.

I don't know about you, but I was taught critical reading in school. I was also taught to think critically about the things I hear, and are told. With few exceptions, I truly believe that this process has served me well, and has been useful to my growth as a person of character. I know too, that I am not the only person that was taught the concept of critical thinking. So why is it then, that so many will allow themselves to be misled about certain things, all because they are too lazy to utilize this simple skill?

For example, on occasion I receive emails from well meaning friends and relatives, in which the text spouts off about a person or group, using generalizations to support their opinion. I received one such email today. (Though I had planned only to respond to the person that sent it, after thinking about it some more, I felt it warranted sharing here, as well.) In the email I received, there was "statistics" listed regarding Muslim terrorist activities, and later the author tied this in with whether or not Barack Obama should be elected president. While I agree that Obama is the least desirable candidate imaginable, I do not agree with the rest of what this email implied.

Firstly, the email listed numerous incidences of Muslim terrorist activities perpetrated by "Muslim males, between the ages of 17 and 40" in support of racial profiling by airport security personnel (does anyone else see this as an awfully broad application for a "profile?"); and then went on to make a correlation between Barack Obama and terrorist Muslims (whether or not this is true, is beside my ultimate point); and finally the original author went so far as to say that Obama is likely the Antichrist- based on a misinterpretation of Scripture (which I could find no basis for, in any translation- and I looked in all of them) stating that the Antichrist would be of Muslim descent!

That last statement deserves a post all of its own; but I'll touch on it briefly, as my first issue with this email. Obama's religious beliefs may be one of the reasons many don't want him for President. But to say he is the Antichrist?! Come on!!! What are we, children who have resorted to name calling?! My next issue is the fact that someone, claiming to be Christian, would so blatantly cite Scripture erroneously, to support their own agenda. There is very little in Scripture that would indicate that the Antichrist will be of Muslim, or even any other Middle Eastern descent. In fact, the only instances that might suggest this are references to Babylon, in Revelation. Critical examination of the text though, and knowledge of the entire Word, do not support this theory. Ancient Babylon was not the same Babylon as it is today, and was not even in the same location. The name Babylon is derived Babel, in which the worshippers of Nimrod were scattered, and their languages confused by God. In addition, Babylon- spiritually speaking, is more often a reference to the Roman Empire, and even idolatrous worship by the Jews themselves. In the latter, Babylon is not even a place, but a mindset. Lastly, and the reason I became riled up enough to write this post, is the fact that all Muslim men "between the ages of 17 and 40," and by default- all Muslims- were lumped together, by the email's original author, as the most likely to commit acts of terrorism. All this, simply because the author never took the time to really investigate the claims that they have heard or read, and to truly examine their own heart.

Let me explain. While it is true that their have been numerous acts of terrorism committed by those that claim to be Muslim (meaning they practice the religion of Islam), this could be said of many other religious groups, as well. Including Christianity, Jews, and even atheists. How many Americans, do you think, are truly aware that not all Middle Easterners are Muslim? Or, more importantly, that not all Muslims interpret the Quran or even Mohammed's teachings, the same as some of the extremists within the group do? In fact, I would go so far as to say that much like Christianity, the majority of Muslim believers do not condone terrorist acts; and that, just as in Christianity, it is only those that have twisted the applicable scriptures- Bible or Quran- to fit their own agenda, that use it to justify such acts.

I'll put this in context for you. Remember the "Crusades?" These were perpetuated by predominately "Christian" rulers, ostensibly to reclaim Jerusalem and the Holy Land from the various "oppressors." The "Crusades" were also used to justify acts that could only be classified as terrorist, against other groups as well. Though religion was cited as the main reason for these attacks; in reality, the attacks had more to do with maintaining land, power and wealth, for European rulers and/or the Papacy, than for religious beliefs. In addition to the "Crusades," there are numerous other instances where a person, or group of people-other than Muslims- has used one reason or another to commit acts of terrorism. Sometimes the reason is religion. For example, anti-abortionists that bomb abortion clinics; Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. Other times, the reason is political or power induced. The examples for this include: kings and presidents throughout the world being killed by terrorists from their own country; the Japanese, in bombing Pearl Harbor; the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, by Jewish terrorists(this is the most deadly terrorist act that has ever taken place in Palestine or Israel to this day!); and let's not forget Timothy McVeigh, Theodore Kaczynski, or White Supremacists in the American south (KKK).

My point here, is that Muslims are not the only group to have factions within, that commit atrocious acts, nor are Christians, nor are whites, nor blacks, nor Jews, nor ANY other group. Each of these groups could be said to have committed numerous categories of assaults that the victims would consider terrorist. So why is it then, that anyone can justify hatred or intolerance, directed toward any other group, based on the actions of a few???!!! What happened to "love your enemy" and "judge not, lest you be judged?" Just because we don't agree with a group's religious beliefs is no reason to judge them all the same, and there is NO reason to judge any group negatively, strictly on the basis of race, skin color or ethnicity. Absolutely no reason.

Now that I've finished my rant, its time to look at what we can do about this. First of all, each of us needs to examine our hearts and our motives, and adjust our thinking according to what is "true, noble, just, pure, lovely and of good report" (ref. Phil 4:8). Secondly, we need to teach our children this Truth. Bigotry does not fit any of the definitions of those words. Our children learn what we teach them. Are you teaching them good or evil? Thirdly, we need to take a stand against such things as I have shared with you today. Let it be known that love is the answer, not hate. As long as we allow the continuation of these attitudes, and don't voice our objections, they will continue. Being a Christian does not mean being quiet when we ought to be loud. That's not humility, that's just fear and laziness. Now, perhaps the attitudes will continue regardless of what we do, but that does not negate our responsibility to do something about it. This is called social responsibility, and ultimately, it is an area in which we that are Christians will be judged. We must do whatever we can to thwart the deceiver's plans to cause chaos and hatred to run rampant; and the only antidote to hatred is love. What do you say? Are you with me? Have a great week, and blessings to you all.

23 comments:

  1. Amen.

    I become very disenchanted with the number of, in this case, Christians who accept an opinion passed along as fact; who do not bother to research for themselves; who do not think critically.

    Kudos to you for taking a stand and showing anyone who happens to read this post that Christians can be critical thinkers and stand up against attacks on those persons we may not agree with nor support.

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  2. You seem to imply there is something wrong if a babykilling abortion mill is burned or bomb. What do you prefer, dead babies or a pile of bricks? Innocent unborn babies deserve to be protected just as born children deserve to be protected. You would have no problem protecting born children if they were about to be murdered.

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  3. twcp authors, thank you for stopping by and for your words of encouragement. I agree that too many people, Christian and non-Christian alike, pass on misinformation that only clouds the true issues. Too many of people do not think critically, and end up causing more harm than good. Christians, at the very least, should know better. Blessings to you!

    Rev. Spitz,
    I made no such implication. I stated, AS FACT, that bombings of any kind, including that of anti-abortionists, against abortion clinics, is an act of terrorism. If a pile of bricks were all that was destroyed by the acts you seem to support, it would still be an act of violence that is strictly prohibited by Jesus' own words. As I stated in my post, God commands us to love our enemies as ourselves. Would you bomb your own home, in the name of any sin it harbored? I don't think so, because I guarantee, every human alive today harbors some kind of sin in their own home. Yours just happens to harbor hate. The only thing that violence begets is violence.
    And for the record, at no point in the New Testament, are Christ followers told to take matters into our own hands, nor to pass judgment upon others. In fact, we are told to "judge not, lest we be judged." Even in the Old Testament, when God told the people of Israel to commit acts of war, it was because He deemed it necessary, not the Israelites, themselves. Even then, the Israelites often didn't complete the job, as God commanded that they do. But since you claim to be a "Reverend," you should know this already.

    The killing of innocent people is never okay. It's murder, plain and simple. Would I prefer that abortion never happened? Of course, I would. I do believe that abortion is the killing of unborn babies. Do I think it's my place or anyone else's to perpetrate an act of violence that won't change the fact that it happens? Emphatically no! God is the Judge of judges; not you, not me, and not any other human on earth today.

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  4. Shalene,

    Well said.

    But you remain curiously silent on the subject of people with a different sexual orientation and also people of no faith.

    What do you think?

    Rev don spitz,

    Shame on you.

    PS

    Shalene,

    Just curious about that critical thinking you mentioned - is slavery a form of bigotry? It appears to be recommended in the bible but I presume you use your critical thinking skills to know that it is isn't appropriate any longer. A judgement of your own perhaps?

    Regards,

    Psi

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  5. Psilio,
    You and I both know what my stance is on homosexual activity. However, I will state that though I do not agree with the lifestyle choices made by such, (again, you and I both know that I believe it to be a CHOICE) I would have to say that I do NOT think that they should be targeted for hate either. That regardless of their sexual proclivity, they deserve the same treatment as far as respect as humans as any other person does. I am aware of what you are getting at, but I refuse to be baited, and diverted from the original intent of this post. The original intent was to state that no person, regardless of any of the circumstances described, or even homosexual identity, should be targeted for terrorist activity. Trying to place homosexuals into the context of this post, is pointless, as I know of no homosexual terrorist activity, that caused the whole population of homosexuals to be viewed with ignorance and hate. There may be other reasons they are the targets of hate, but this is not one of them. So let me say it again, hatred of any other human being is wrong. We don't have to like a groups actions or thoughts to love the group.

    As for slavery...I believe this too is wrong. Slavery was not recommended in the Bible, as you state. It was prevalent in the Bible, yes, but it was so because it was a fact of the times. I could go into detail about why God sanctioned (not the same as suggested) slavery, but that would take entirely too long. God does not suggest that any race is inferior to another, on the basis of skin color or racial birth. Even God's choosing of Israel as His chosen people did not infer that Jews were superior as a people, only that they were potentially more righteous. By the time of Jesus Christ's death, though, even that distinction was gone. "For we are all one nation and people."

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  6. No I didn't know your opinion until I asked.

    Your post seems to be against bigotry.

    Why do you think homosexuality is a choice? We see homosexuality in large numbers of species in the natural world which lack anything like a culture or much in the way of rational thought processes - how do you suppose these creatures choose.

    Why does the fact that it is a choice mean that it is wrong?

    Perhaps god might change his mind on homosexuality if it becomes more prevalent in the same way he changed his mind on slavery to reflect the changes in human society?

    Just curious.

    - - -

    Does this mean that God tells us what is wrong, or that god makes it wrong by saying so?

    Regards,

    Psi

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  7. Just wanted to give you kudos...and also thank you for being so patient with the comments here :-)

    When I get those e-mail forwards...they're always targeting SOMEthing...I head to snopes.com and get the relavent link that disproves the e-mail...then I forward the link not only to the person who sent me the e-mail, but also to everyone they sent it to. (I hit forward all). Hopefully in so doing, less people will be inclined to believe something just because it comes in their inbox.

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  8. Psilio,
    I assumed that you knew my stance because (1) I am a conservative Baptist, (2) you stated you had all Ryan's files from the original blog, and the two of us had discussed this on more than one occasion. I apologize for assuming that you were already aware of my stance.

    Now having said that, I will state AGAIN that my post IS against bigotry, as am I. A bigot is defined as "someone with strong opinions, especially in the area of religion, politics or ethnicity, who refuses to accept other views." Bigotry should not be applied to sexuality; though, I suppose if you were to, I would still say that I AM against bigotry. Just because I believe that homosexuality is a choice, doesn't mean that I have anything but the utmost respect and compassion (and I try to have agape- that is godly love) towards everyone. I do not have to be accepting of a persons actions to be accepting of them. There truly is a difference.

    As for whether or not it's a choice: stating that other species of animal engages in same sex activity is beside the point. Animals are not humans. They do not have free will, they have ANIMAL instincts- and therefore it is debatable whether or not they "choose." I only said that humans choose, because we have a higher brain function than animals- so why compare ourselves to them? (Let's not get on the subject of evolution. I will not go there with you.) Regardless of whether or not, there is any conclusive evidence to suggest that it has a biological/ genetic origen in humans, (and I know of none) it is still a choice whether or not any sexual activity is acted out- hetero or homosexual. We all are capable of choosing what we think about and how we conduct ourselves, and we all choose our sexual activities and/ or lack thereof.

    It is wrong because God repeatedly says its wrong. God designed sex to be between one man and one woman. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." That was His original design and plan for humankind. That is still His design and plan for us- it has never changed. We have, as a human race, continually chosen that which is contrary to His design for us.

    For that matter, His "mind" has also never been changed regarding slavery. (Even if God's "mind" could be changed- which it can't- on the basis of prevalence in society, one would think that it would have been changed with regard to homosexuality a long time ago. Ours is, by far, not the first society to have a prevalence of at least partially accepted homosexual activity. Look at ancient Rome and Greece.)

    Now, as I said, I won't be diverted here in the comments, but I will pray about, and think about, how I should respond to you, in a new post. I already know the answer, I just want to think and pray about how I should go about saying it. (I would say we could communicate by email, but I don't think I want to make that mistake again. Blessings to you Psilio.

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  9. Tiffany, I usually do the same thing with regard to the emails I receive. In all actuality, though the context of the email did get me riled up, I actually started out checking every version of the bible, at Blue Letter Bible Institute, to see if I could find- anywhere- a reference to the antichrist being of Muslim descent. I'm not sure I could have found that information at snopes.com :) But yes, I tend to go there immediately as well as sending it back to everyone on the list. It's a tricky situation though, since it is usually someone I care about that has sent it, and I don't wish to offend them by doing so. :) Thanks for stopping by.

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  10. I will respond to the substance of your comment in a while.

    But here I just wanted to say that I feel it is very unfair for you implying that I have sent you some kind of abusive email. Or that I have copies of your blog files or anything of the kind.

    We haven't "corresponded" by emails.

    You previously posted on the topic evolution and challenged people to answer your questions. I did so and pointed out that several of your facts were wrong and suggested that someone had given you false information - you responded by deleting my comments - and later the whole posting - claiming that I had denigrated your beliefs by not agreeing with them.

    Luckily I kept copies of the posting and comments and put it up on my own blog.

    Hopefully this clarifies your vague hints for anyone reading this.

    Regards,

    Psi

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  11. Psilio, again I apologize. I had you confused with someone else, apparently. You are correct. We have never corresponded by email. The correspondence I referred to occurred with the person I had you confused with (Ryan). I should have taken the time to discover for sure who you were. Please accept my sincere apology for what it's worth.

    As for deleting comments and or posts on my blog, you are correct. I did delete them, and have been known to do so, whenever I feel it is in the best interests of my readers, myself, or the body of Christ (the Church as a whole.) As I have stated in the past, this blog is specifically for the edification of believers. Any other purpose is secondary, and therefore unimportant. I will never guarantee that I won't delete any of the above, at any point, if I feel the need to. However, you can rest assured that I will not ever take your comments out of context, or misquote you. As for what you do on your blog, that is your business. If you wish to reproduce the content of a conversation we have, well that's your prerogative. I hope and pray that we can have a respectful and civilized discussion on whatever topics arise, and that our differences of opinion and belief can be discussed without recrimination or insult. I do not wish to engage in any communication which is denigrating to either one of us. Have a blessed day, sir.

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  12. Thank you and well said.


    Now I look forward to your posting on my question.

    - - -

    Following on from my previous comment - do you know any gay people?

    None of those I know would say their instincts/feelings are a choice?

    How do you come to that conclusion.

    - - -

    What is the difference between bigotry and prejudice?

    Regards,

    Psi

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  13. Wonderfully written.
    Blessings,
    Lance
    www.lancessoulsearching.com

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  14. Wow, that sure stirred up a lot of stuff, didn't it? But that's probably a good thing, because it gets folks thinking. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and I agree that we Christians to tend to be rather bigoted, but that is absolutely so UN-Christlike. Again, thanks for sharing.

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  15. Hi Shalene,

    Just saw this on the web today.

    Are you open to evidence like this?

    How does a gay person chose to have their brain look different to a straight person of the same sex?

    If this evidence turns out to be confirmed would you change your mind?

    Regards,

    Psi

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  16. Psilio, Again, this post was not about sexual orientation, by choice or by biology. I appreciate your desire to engage in dialogue about this, and when I have a moment to do so, I will write a post on this subject. Until then here was what I have to say:

    Firstly, the link you gave did not show conclusive evidence of a difference in brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals. It is also my own opinion that all such theories are biased, regardless of which view they are trying to support-pro or anti homosexuality.

    Secondly, regardless of what "proof" is shown to me, it is my stance that sexual activity is a choice, period. It does not matter if it is homosexual in nature or heterosexual in nature. We choose who we have sex with, and who we do not. It matters not what our brains, or our chemical makeup, or whatever else, says. If I were gay, I would still say that I choose whether or not to engage in homosexual sex. I could also choose not to engage in any sex. I am not gay, and say that I choose to have heterosexual sex. Sex is not something humans need in order to survive. The species, maybe, but not on an individual basis(and with the availability of IVF, sex isn't even necessary for procreation, if you get right down to it.)

    So, you asked if a study like the one you gave, showed conclusive results (and you have to admit that it did NOT) would I then change my mind. The answer is still "NO." We all choose our sexual behavior, ALL OF US. And regardless of what any of us chooses, God's Word says that homosexuality is wrong. God's Word is my final authority, and that's the end of it. I know that may be difficult for you to relate to, but that is a fact of who I am. I also choose to believe in God, and that what the Bible says about Him and His commands for us, is wholly true.

    Now, please, be patient, and I will write something soon. If you really, really feel the need for me to address some other question on this subject, please email me at info@prv31woman.org (you can even save your copies of the email, if you wish to be assured that I do not misquote you- and perhaps we can do "opposing views" posts, or something, so long as they are respectful of our differences. Anyway, enough for now. Good day, sir.

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  17. Hi Shalene,

    No need to shout.

    I am happy to confirm this evidence isn't conclusive, I didn't claim it was, and in fact if you read my comment you will see that I implied as much with the words "if it were to be confirmed".

    You said;

    "It is also my own opinion that all such theories are biased, regardless of which view they are trying to support-pro or anti homosexuality.

    Secondly, regardless of what "proof" is shown to me, it is my stance that sexual activity is a choice, period.

    God's Word says that homosexuality is wrong. God's Word is my final authority, and that's the end of it."

    So you claim to know that all such studies are biased simply because the possible motive exists for them to be biased. Do you apply this reasoning throughout your life? Seems awfully cynical to me, not to mention being logically unsound. Perhaps you only apply it to certain subjects?

    I am curious as to which bit of God's word you are following here. The two bits I am familiar with i.e. Leviticus and Kings (happy to be corrected here) actually tell you to either banish or kill practising homosexuals. Why or how can you ignore the punishment bit of god's word whilst upholding the "moral" bit?

    I was a little cheeky and decided to check up on your claim about the dictionary definition had so a quick look on Wikipedia for the definition of bigot and found this;

    "A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding ideology.
    The origin of the word bigot and bigoterie in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite", especially a woman. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable."

    But then you have already said you hold your opinions "regardless of what proof is shown to you" so I guess that is the end of that.

    Regards,

    Psi

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  18. Here we go again.

    Hey babe, this is not helping anyone. Save your pearls.

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  19. Bobby,

    Shalene did say that she didn't care if people don't agree with her. I have already agreed with the huge majority of her post and offered (for what its worth) my praise for this.

    I am now asking questions that I think follow on from the topic raised.

    No one has to answer if they don't want to.

    But making implications that I am a pig says a lot more about you than it does about me, and would not appear to be very civilised, or to be contributing to the discussion.

    Regards,

    Psi

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  20. Psi,

    “But making implications that I am a pig says a lot more about you than it does me”

    I am not implying that you are a pig, those were Christ’s words. You are right though, it does say a lot about me. It says that I am a man of God that knows His word and His word tells me that it is worthless to try to correct one unwilling to listen. Correcting those who will not receive correction is futile, we should discerningly continue to offer wisdom (or the gift of the kingdom) only to those willing to receive what we offer, just as God does. It does not allow us to prejudge who may receive our message (Mt 13:3-23), but does forbid us to try to force it on those who show no inclination to accept it (Mt 10:13-16)

    “or to be contributing to the discussion”

    There is no point to this discussion. So no, I won’t contribute.

    God bless!

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  21. I am aware that the words come from your holy book. Quite how that means they are not insulting I am not sure, would you explain?



    Shalene would be disappointed with your view on her blog posting subject.

    Either you don't have an answer to my questions and don't want to think about it, you are ashamed of the answer you do have so won't tell me or something else.

    Ignoring honest questions doesn't seem very civilised either.

    Regards,

    Psi

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  22. Psilio, now, now... let's be nice, regardless of how others treat us, ok? (I'm speaking to all of my other readers as well.) So let's start from the end and work our way back, shall we?

    Firstly, I do not believe that Bobby was implying that you were a pig, or even that you personally were like a pig. The Scripture reference is an allegory (in other words, it is is meant to a symbolic representation- not in any way literal) in which the Good News is as priceless and valuable as the best pearls. And attempting to give my best pearls to someone (i.e. spiritual counsel) that didn't have any inclination to believe would be just as inappropriate, and ineffective, as throwing priceless pearls into a pig's pen. He was not saying you were a pig, and was not even truly comparing you to a pig. Though I agree, perhaps a different tack might have been used, I cannot believe he meant you intentional offense. (He just tends to be a little bit protective of me. He is my husband, after all. He is also very serious about his role as the spiritual leader of our home. He takes faith in God very seriously, as he should.) :)

    Now, having said that, I will say that in the case of you, I have no thought of trying to convert you, as I do not believe that you have any inclination to do so. Nor is it my place to try to persuade you, if God has not determined that the time is right. I answer your questions, not with the thought of your salvation so much, as the thought of simply sharing why I believe what I believe, but also with the hope that others that are seeking will find answers in my responses. Basically my hope is that through our dialogue, someone will be assisted in seeing the Light. You have been clear from the outset that you do not, and will not believe as I do, and I have attempted to be as respectful of you and your wishes in this regard. I will answer your questions, so long as I think they warrant a genuine answer, and hope that in your questioning, you will be respectful as well. (Your comments are a bit cheeky, at times, as you- yourself, stated.) :) It is easy to see how one would think that you were being intentionally insulting, even if gently insulting.

    As for the definition of bigotry: Though I wouldn't rely on Wiki for exhaustive information (it's been known to be wrong, a time or two; and is only as reliable as the person sharing it) I would have to admit that the broad definition/ application of the word would suggest that I, and other Christians, are bigots. However, if you look only at the strict definition of the word, you will see that it is an opinion or idea that is preconceived, and is maintained regardless of fact(s) provided to refute it. There are no "facts" that refute any of my statements made in this post. Just as there are no "facts" to support yours. So, we are at an impasse, neither of us can prove our stances, and so to continue debate it seems a bit useless. I will though, address many of your questions in a post that should be done just a bit later this evening.

    Next, you asked how I can uphold the "moral bit" of God's Word, and not the "punishment bit." This too, does not have a short answer, but I will attempt to do so. The law given to the Israelites was given in order that they could know what was sin, and what wasn't. In this way they could at least attempt righteousness. (Though we know that none were able to, until Jesus, because it's a fact that temple sacrifices were given to atone for the believer's sins. Also, when the Israelites entered the promised land, they saw that the nations around them had rulers over them. They wanted this as well. Instead, initially, he gave them guidelines for judges and judgments to be made by them, pertaining to violations of God's laws, as given to Moses at Mt. Sinai. These appointed people were the only humans eligible to pass judgment resulting in the punishment of sin. This was never a process that any and all were intended to carry out. But like most other areas, humanity has bent the presiding law to fit their own wishes- then and today. After Jesus was crucified and resurrected. there was no longer any need for the Levitical law to show any believer their sin, because all believers (soon thereafter) were given the indwelt Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) to guide them in God's commands. All of God's commands hinge on loving God above all things, and loving your neighbor (including enemies) as yourself.

    Any "judment" made on the part of a Christian, is only to discern whether or not an action is sinful according to God's Holy Word, if it is, to refrain from it- and to rebuke those that engage in it (other believers only- not unbelievers, that is not our place), and lastly to hold each other accountable as a Church family (I mean the whole body of Christian believers, not one particular building.) Also no believer is to judge another's actions, without first ensuring that they are not engaging in any hypocrisy themselves ("removing the log from our own eye, before addressing the splinter in theirs.") Also, you will note that I said we are to judge the actions, not the person. We are to love the person, just as God does, regardless of their sin or lack thereof. This is why I can uphold the "moral bit," but not the "punishment bit," because it is what God's Word instructs us to do. I need not accept any person's actions as acceptable and good, but I must accept the person, regardlessly. This is why I can say with confidence that I am NOT a bigot, because I do not judge the person, only the action. Also, I apply my judgment across the board, not only to a specific group of people. I judge heterosexual immorality, just as I do homosexual immorality. Neither one is excluded.

    Lastly, I apologize if I gave the impression of "yelling." I was only trying to emphasize my point, without regard to directing my response to anyone in particular (though I was addressing your comments, in general.) I also did not intend to imply that you were not in ready agreement that the study provided no conclusive evidence. Again, my response was directed at the topic in general, not to you, specifically. Also, anyone reading the comments shown here, would see for themselves, that you did indeed imply the same possibility with regard to the study's data.

    As for your comment that I "claim to know that all such studies are biased simply because the possible motive exists for them to be biased," I wonder if you read my comment, or just copy and pasted without fully digesting what I said. I clearly stated that it was "my opinion," which by default, may or may not be fact, as it applies to everyone and everything. An opinion is one's own. You have yours as well. You will find that I am not generally viewed as a cynical person at all, though I do try to be discerning. In the context of any such studies on homosexuality, regardless of the stance being studied, I have not found any conducted, that did not attempt to support the theory and the agenda of whatever the study takers wanted it to say. In addition, I have reservations about any tests being done, resulting in any objective conclusions, when the study is based on strictly subjective material. (We can only know what one considers to be their sexual orientation, by what they choose to tell us it is.) How can anyone expect scientific conclusiveness to be reached by something so intangible, as each individual's own perception? Again, this is only my opinion, and not something I consider to be fact, but perhaps you could concede the possibility that I may have a valid point- regardless of whether you agree? Remember I am applying this opinion "across the board" as well.

    Now, please do go read my latest post. It should be ready and posted very soon. Good day, Psilio.

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  23. Hi Shalene,

    Thanks for clarifying. I do know what the quote is about and I am used to using analogies in discussions. Using one which likens your opponent to a pig is not considered polite around here.

    Of course I accept you saying that he meant no offence.

    Correct, I am not religious. But I do find supernatural belief fascinating.

    I like asking questions.

    I am sorry if this comes across as insulting or blunt. We call a spade a spade around here. This is Yorkshire after all. If I ask a question it is simply because I would like an answer. If you don't want to give it then of course that is your prerogative, but please don't equate curiosity with deliberate insult.

    It is interesting that you have a "spiritual leader" in your home. As a happily married man for nearly 22 years now, my wife and I share most things. Is Bobby the leader because he is the man?

    You say I have no inclination to convert and you are right. I am however open to it. I try to live my life rationally and that means changing your mind about things a new evidence comes in if that is what the new evidence demands. It means thinking about things and being open minded.

    I am not religious in the first place simply because I wasn't brought up to be. More latterly I have not converted as I have seen no evidence for the supernatural.

    By all means try me with your best shot.

    BTW I think you misread the Wiki entry on Bigotry; the first bit is the definition and the second bit just a best guess of the origins of the word. This does not imply and I certainly don't think that all Christians are Bigots. Bigotry and religion are orthogonal in my view. I know of bigots who were not religious and who had different religions to yours.

    Here in the UK, treating people differently because of their sexual orientation is legally defined as "discrimination" and is a criminal offence. You say that you love the sinner, does this mean that you would treat a homosexual any different to a heterosexual? In my experience actions speak louder than words. What actions would your position result in?

    I can see you have now posted more fully on this so I will comment on that when I have had chance to read that posting and think about it.

    A small point for future note. I can only read what you write. I can't read your mind just by "fully digesting and reflecting on what you wrote".

    With regard to your point about all studies so far being biased, perhaps you can tell me specifically what it is about this latest study that makes it biased in your view. This might help me clarify what you think even though we both agree it is not a conclusive study. You do say that it is biased and I am curious.

    I think that people can agree on objective truth in special cases, usually science subjects i.e. the laws of nature, replicable observations and experiment. It is difficult, you do have to be actively looking for mistakes in logic and technique but I think we can get quite confident with some things that they are pretty true.

    I think that just saying people can never work out the truth is shirking the capabilities in our rational minds and runs the risk of abdicating responsibility to someone who has other motives besides finding the truth.

    But that's just my opinion.

    Regards,

    Psi

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts!! You and your comments are much appreciated!! Blessings to you!

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